The Ignition Zone Podcast

Zambia's economy, entrepreneurship, and opportunities with Jito Kayumba

• Mmathebe • Season 1 • Episode 5

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What if a unified Africa could reshape the global economic landscape?

In this thought-provoking episode of The Ignition Zone, I sat down with Jito Kayumba, Zambia's Presidential Economic and Investment Advisor, to explore the strategic economic reforms and growth initiatives shaping Zambia’s future—and by extension, Africa’s.

1. A New Economic Era for Zambia

Zambia has been navigating bold economic reforms under President Hakainde Hichilema’s leadership. With a private sector-driven approach, the country has prioritized debt restructuring, mining sector revitalization, and energy diversification.

Mining remains Zambia’s economic backbone, contributing 40% of treasury revenue and 75% of foreign exchange earnings. The government has unlocked new mining investments, signaling long-term economic resilience despite challenges like power deficits and drought.

2. Breaking the Cycle of Poverty through Education

Jito emphasizes the power of education in breaking generational poverty cycles. Zambia’s government has made education free from Grade 1 to Grade 12, recruited 30,000 teachers, and revamped technical education programs to ensure youth are equipped for the global economy.

With Africa poised to be the youngest population by 2030, investing in education, entrepreneurship, and technology skills is non-negotiable. Jito draws parallels with previous Ignition Zone guests, like Dr. Pali Lehohla, who stressed that education is at the heart of poverty reduction.

3. Public Healthcare as an Economic Lever

A healthy population is a productive population. Zambia has increased funding for maternal health, nutrition programs, and infrastructure development to ensure a strong human capital base. This aligns with Africa’s broader challenge—many nations underinvest in healthcare, creating long-term economic setbacks.

4. A United Africa: Reframing the Global Narrative

Jito challenges the misconception that Africa is a monolith. He highlights the African Continental Free Trade Area (AfCFTA) as a pivotal moment in economic unification. However, economic integration must be matched with a stronger self-perception—Africa must drive its own branding, storytelling, and trade policies.

5. The Future is Bright, but Intentional Action is Required

Zambia is moving towards economic diversification, with investments in agriculture, energy, and infrastructure. However, African nations must take control of their economic destinies.

👉🏾 How do we equip our youth with the right skills?
👉🏾 How do we align business and government in driving economic growth?
👉🏾 How do we create an investment-friendly Africa that attracts long-term capital?

The answers lie in data-driven policies, strategic investments, and strong leadership.

🎧 Tune in to the full episode to hear Jito’s deep insights into Zambia’s economic transformation and Africa’s potential to redefine its global position.

Watch on YouTube on: https://youtu.be/CHJlseTM3hM?si=YzK_RPOa0pESGTXp

Speaker 1:

I believe that one. We need to be more united as Africans. You know, of course there's the formation of the African Continental Free Trade Area, which is great. We need to implement that, but I believe, more alignment around how do we want the world to see us? Because already they see us as one. So, ultimately, we need to strengthen our stability and strengthen our institutions within the continent so that the perception matters can change, and perception begins by changing a reality. We need to grow our economies.

Speaker 2:

Hello and welcome to the Ignition Zone, your go-to podcast, where we ignite ideas, spark transformation and fuel the journey to unlocking Africa's economic potential. I am your host, Matebe Zrobo. Welcome back to the Ignition Zone podcast. Joining me today is Jito Kayumba, Zambia's Presidential Economic and Investment Advisor to the current Zambian President, President Hichilema. Jito has been at the forefront of shaping Zambia's economic policies and working closely with government and private sector players to drive sustainable growth. It's an honor to have him on the podcast to share insights into Zambia's economic future and how entrepreneurship and partnerships can be catalysts for lasting change. Welcome to the podcast, Jito.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for lasting change. Welcome to the podcast, Chito.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me. Great, I had the privilege of meeting you when you still partner at Kukula Capital investing in Zambia's entrepreneurs, and we had a good conversation about high-growth entrepreneurship.

Speaker 1:

What are some of the things that you started to believe that had to be true or hold true in order for Zambia to coming to this office, has been working in the private sector as a young Zambian who not only knows what it's like to be young in Zambia, but also to be a business person, to be somebody who is someone who's faced with some of the regulatory processes that not only impede the business in some instances but, of course, areas where there's certainly opportunity. So I really got to understand and come to terms with, whether it be how slow it is to get a power plant going or how difficult it is to engage with the tax authority or some of these other entities where there's a communication gap or where there's a lack of understanding of the needs of the private sector, who I believe are extremely important. I believe that even though as a government official now but the fact is we need a private sector driven economy to create a job who are best at creating value, because the sustainability of a business requires them to have a business model that is able to leverage on its skill set or its value proposition, producing products and services that are derived from a cost structure that is less than the revenue that comes in, right, which allows for profitability, and then, ultimately, taxes are paid from what profits are created. So, with that being said, the transition was very interesting for me into government, and the president knew this, and my greatest honor and not only of working with him is really being one of the people he identified as being ideal for such a role. Because of the private sector exposure In the past, those who've occupied an office, such as mine, have been your traditional economists, right? They're traditional economists, right, who are fantastic people, but who are more world first in analysis, in looking at trends, but basically capturing data almost after the fact. But we need activities that stimulate economic activity. We need investments.

Speaker 1:

What moves the economic needle, what gets GDP numbers up? It's transactions. What moves the economic needle, what gets GDP numbers up? It's transactions, and I come from a transactions world and, of course, being that link between the presidency and as well as the economic ministries and the private sector is one that I'd say is a pretty ideal fit based on my background and, of course, it's a role I've grown into and we've been really, I'd say I've grown into and we've been really, I'll say, successful in getting a significant number of transactions going over the last three and a half years. That has really, I would say, mitigated crisis.

Speaker 1:

Zambia can definitely be better off now than it currently is, but we've been faced by a number of factors which I will get into, but I'll just touch on in brief because I don't want to make this a diatribe around why we aren't where we should be, but I'll just speak more around the role and based on your question and it leading to certain successes.

Speaker 1:

Of course, I can't do it without a phenomenal leader, phenomenal president, who is the guiding light, the vision carrier, who guides every step that we take, but, at the same time, we're there to support him and implement his vision.

Speaker 1:

You know a government like ours or a country like ours which depends on mining as being a significant revenue earner. Over 75% of Forex earnings comes from mining. It's a huge contributor to GDP, so it's really, really important, and that's one of the areas we addressed. We've been able to unlock close to $12 billion of new investments in the mining industry. We've revived old mines that have been huge contributors to our economy, and this is why we believe the future is extraordinarily bright, if it weren't for a drought that really debilitated our growth, as well as the resulting power deficit, would have been much further off. But I'll conclude answer your question by saying this with my background working with the phenomenal team, what we've been able to do is really earth shattering, including restructuring debt. That was also another massive impediment, and we could see that there's so much light at the end of the tunnel and we'll be turning a massive corner this year in particular.

Speaker 2:

That's awesome. So it sounds like what you knew had to be true was, firstly, as a Zambian growing up in Zambia, you know, and a business person, you needed to make sure that there is leadership, or rather, that you got your hands dirty and got into government and drove that with a philosophy of driving transactions, investment and just pure leadership. I think it's been absolutely amazing to watch how your government and the president have been navigating that. But now one of the things that come to mind for me is to this day I mean, I don't know if you've been following the global narratives that have been happening currently in terms of geopolitics, but to this day, africa really remains one of the most misunderstood economies. What do you think is the biggest misconception about Zambia in particular in this instance, or even Africa in general, and what message would you like to share with entrepreneurs and investors about the country's potential?

Speaker 1:

Well, thank you really for that. I will say the first misconception is that Africa is a monolith, that every country is the same, that all Africans are the same. It is not a country. It is a highly diverse environment. It's obviously a mosaic of multiple cultures, multiple countries with different languages, different way of life and, of course, different state functions. There's some countries that are democracies, like yours and mine. There are countries that are not democracies, that are under military rule. So that's the first thing and that has an aspect that I think people have to come to terms with.

Speaker 1:

When a person wants to do a transaction in Zambia, but they've heard about a story. I don't want to name names because I have to respect the fact that we've got diplomatic ties with multiple countries across the continent, but I'll just use a couple of examples, without naming names. So say, you've got a country that just had a military coup and maybe there might be concerns around peace, stability, rule of law. Now that's the news people are seeing on the television and investors saying Africa is bad because this is what happens. But then there's Zambia, a democratic country. It's had seven presidents since 1964. Each of these presidents were democratically elected, with peaceful transitions of power, where there is not only rule of law, there's freedom of speech, there is property rights, there's all the factors that any investor should feel comfortable with, and all that is very much in place. And I think this ties into the question around what people should feel about Zambia that Zambia truly is such an ideal investment destination. Zambia is an English speaking country, as is yours, and so it's very easy to engage investors from across the world, who obviously align with that. But beyond matters of that nature, it's really the attractiveness of transactions. It's not enough to say that we are peaceful, we're stable. An investor wants to know will I make money if I come to your country? And the answer is absolutely yes, looking at the economic trajectory that we're on.

Speaker 1:

First and foremost, if you look at the brief history and just specifically speaking about Zambia, in the years prior to President Haka Ndehechilema taking office, zambia was mired in a debt situation where we had more than 100% of GDP being covered by debt and a significant portion being external debt. Now, with that being said, you cannot do much in terms of investment or utilize your treasury in an effective way if a lot of it is committed to debt payments, and that obviously compromised the attractiveness of our country. It drove down the credit rating. It also added to the risk premiums associated with borrowing money, so money became very expensive, so Zambian entrepreneurs and the government could not access money at the right price. So all of these factors impeded investment in the country.

Speaker 1:

But, good news President Hakan Dehidjelma comes in immediately, gets into an IMF program where the IMF played a convening role to assist in ensuring that there's credibility, there's legitimacy on our path towards getting debt sustainability going. In addition to that, we got all the creditors a significant number of them, the official creditors, the bondholders to agree to new terms to restructure, to reschedule the debt, which essentially, has now brought us to a point where we have a clear line of sight on the dismantling of our debt in terms of paying it off. We're already current with our payments, now based on the restructured arrangements, and this is something that any investor, when looking at Zambia from a fiscal standpoint, can say okay, that's an environment I can actually work in. They've got the credibility of having not even agreed to restructure their debts, but they are post-default. They're now in a situation where the credibility has been enhanced and with that I think it's certainly invest. And then, of course, we have limited controls on issues of Forex and things of that nature, so it's a very easy environment to invest. So, if you're talking from a foreign direct investment perspective, put money in the economy and then also, when you make a profit, take your profits out without any issues whatsoever.

Speaker 1:

And, of course, you know, I must say that if you look at where we've come from from a GDP growth perspective starting from negative 2.8 in 2021, getting to the point where, okay, we had a power deficit last year which was caused by a drought which really drastically affected our growth but this year what we have is we're targeting a million tons of copper production, which is a huge indicator for what makes the economy move, which has an ecosystem effect, because copper mining requires a lot of energy, requires a huge supply chain, it employs a lot of people, not only directly, but also in the supply chain. It brings in a lot of forex. It is so important for the economy, it pays a lot of taxes and, with that being said, copper getting to a million, which will be us breaking our own national record, will essentially be part and parcel of why this economy is going to be back on its feet. And then, secondly, the energy aspect. Energy is such a huge stimulator for economic activity and the energy situation which we're diversifying. I mean we've similar to South Africa we had not had. But we're going through a period of load shedding as a result of, you know, having a constrained energy mix where you're dependent on a large portion of your energy coming from one source, in our case it's hydro. Now we have a drought, it means it's little. Hydrolysis generate electricity. So we've now created a platform where there's more investment in solar, we're enhancing our investment in our thermal power, and all of that is now moving us to a point where we can see a lot of economic growth.

Speaker 1:

Now that's really on Zambia, but zooming out again to the continent, I think what's really important is that we need to take more responsibility as Africans, because there's so much view that, oh, the rest of the world don't. Free Trade Area, which is great. We need to implement that, but, I believe, more alignment around how do we want the world to see us? Because already they see us as one. So ultimately, we need to strengthen our stability and strengthen our institutions within the continent so that the perception matters can change, and perception begins by changing a reality. We need to grow our economies, we need to be in a situation where we don't have our citizens trying to you know, get on little vessels across the I believe it's the Mediterranean to get to Europe because of the conditions in the continent, and that's what people see. They just see migrants running away from a bad situation. So who can blame the world for seeing Africa in a bad light when they hear of cools, when they hear of starvation, hunger and so on?

Speaker 1:

We need to get to a point where not only are we growing our economies, but we are much more intentional around how we deliver value for our citizens. How do we orient ourselves in terms of even the way we communicate to the rest of the world? Because if you look at the phenomenal branding story of the US, I believe that the US is a case study in how you brand a country. There's a lot of issues there that people don't know about, but you see Hollywood, you see the glitz, you see the glam, you see great things, and they themselves have a massive belief in their own greatness. Right, and that comes down to the manner in which they communicate to the rest of the world and ultimately, that has an impact in how they behave, which actually makes their country better. So I think we have to take pride of our culture and you know, these are things that are marketed the right way and, most importantly, we take ownership from a copyright perspective, from intellectual property perspective, so that that also accrues economic value, that accrues revenues, royalties and the like.

Speaker 1:

So there's so much that could be said around Africa's perception, how Africa's perceived in the world, but it starts with ourselves. How do we really work on building an Africa that we can all be proud of, so that what we project to the world is something that's a reflection of our reality, not one where people are shamed? And it starts with individuals as well, not just at government level. It's how we culture, how we relate to each other in the homes, in the communities, how we from a country to country perspective. I know we can't be having a situation where my apologies for having to bring this up is that we have some countries where there's xenophobia against other Africans, right, when we have a lot of shared. Of course, we are different from country to country, but we also have a lot of shared history.

Speaker 1:

Let me tell you how Zambia Zambia plays such a significant role in liberating many countries on the continent. I work in this building. This is State House, it's the office of the president, and around the walls of this office there are photos of people like the late Sam Niyombo may saw. Rest in peace, just passed on a few days ago. I could list so many of them, but there's, you know, president of Mozambique I mean that's in the first president.

Speaker 1:

So most of the founding presidents across Africa. Their photos are here Now, there in the first president. So most of the founding presidents across Africa. Their photos are here Now. There's a reason for that Many of them, during their time of struggle, they would actually hide out right here. In the 60s and 70s they were here, housed by Kenneth Kaunda, in order for them to have a safe haven while they strategize around accomplishing independence, including leaders that fought apartheid in South Africa. They lived here. Anc had an office right here in Zambia. So now that to me, should reflect also in how we engage economically that we've gone through our liberation time. Now we need to move into a time where we have much more engagements that are oriented around economic integration but at the same time, where we have more control African indigenous African control of our local economies and how that accrues in a better life for citizens across the continent. So to me that's something I'm very passionate about and I think hopefully addresses your question.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I love that. Firstly, I think, as Africans, you're right, we do need to view ourselves in a better light. I think it starts, you know, from individuals as well. You know, in terms of like, how do I see myself, how do I embrace being African? But I agree with you, I think, the idea that we are yes, we're separate countries, but I do think there's a space that we need to create in which, you know, we bring that continental pride, because Africa is going to be home, you know, to about the largest population in 2030, about 1.5 billion. So for us as Africans, it's an absolute huge opportunity that probably no continent actually has at this point. Everybody else's population is declining and then ours is sort of growing.

Speaker 2:

But I love what you said earlier about just the short-term programs that you had to kickstart to make sure that the economy works. So you spoke about the debt restructuring. You spoke about making sure that you're working on energy as a short-term crisis. You also spoke about making sure that you're thinking about your energy mix as well. And, obviously, mining. So mining is still a very big one for Zambia. I've seen, you know, big infrastructure projects around mining, like the Lubito Corridor, for example. So mining is still very big for Zambia. What does this look like, though, from a long-term sustainable growth perspective? Because what tends to happen is, you know, we focus so much on the short-term crisis because we are in crisis in some areas, but what does that mean when we start to plan for the long-term sustainability of the population in various ways? So what does the long-term sustainable growth path look like for Zambia? So what does the long-term sustainable growth path look like for Zambia.

Speaker 1:

You know, I'll tell you why I like that question a lot. Because I like that question? Because I always get the opposite, particularly from Zambians. Zambians want more short-term solutions than they do want long-term. In fact, the outcry and biggest complaint I get is that you guys are always talking long-term. Why is it always about the future, about now?

Speaker 2:

You know, because I'm hungry, right now and I need my issues solved right now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I get that. The reality is today. You know, the circumstances of today are what they are because of what we did or did not do yesterday. So the future is very important and everything we do today is formed around. How do we make a phenomenal tomorrow? And the reality is, in order to create a good future, one has to make certain sacrifices, sacrifices around. How do you hold back certain expenditure? Because there's certain things that people do today for temporary relief.

Speaker 1:

Let me give an example like subsidies. Subsidies have been unsustainable for many years and this is something that we've had to cut from various sectors. Yes, it has had an impact on the cost of certain goods and we care deeply for those who struggle to make ends meet. But of course, we've done enormous things to mitigate that, including creating programs like Cash for Work, where the government mobilized funds to communities for them to literally get paid to do community work, community service. Two, we've done social cash transfer and added on an additional amount called emergency cash transfer, which also goes to those who don't have the means to make an income, particularly the aged, the disabled and the like. And of course, these are ways in which we mitigate and including also decentralizing, sending more money into constituencies than that has ever happened in the history of our country. So in the past the equivalent of about one hundred one point six million kwacha was sent into constituencies on an annual basis for them to to do development. It's called Constituency Development Fund. Now we've taken that up to a million dollars, which is over 30 million kwacha, which is again phenomenal in terms of quantum of funds that go to places. That again, I've never really had access to money of that nature.

Speaker 1:

So what does that do? Is that it gets citizens in their local community to decide what do they do to stimulate growth in the area. Who gets access to capital? Do we need a school? It's not being decided in Lusaka. On the capital, it's not being decided by the political elites or the base in the city, it's being decided by the community. Where the hospital is built, should there be water in that particular space, it is decided by them. And that's the power and beauty of decentralization and entrusting that element of procurement and fund to the community. That is part of creating a long-term sustainable plan. It does address short-term issues, for sure, but it also builds local capacity out in rural Zambia where there's, you know, there's just subsistence farming, there isn't good quality schools, there isn't access to clean water, but now, all of a sudden, you do have access to that, so you could build roads, you could build all sorts of infrastructure that takes your community to another level and builds better quality of life for citizens there. And we believe that, you know, part of democracy is that you not only trust people with the decision of who should be their leaders. It's about entrusting them with also a degree of responsibility of how the money that belongs to them is spent, and that's ultimately what we're doing in that regard.

Speaker 1:

Now, talking about the macro picture, you know, from an economic growth perspective and the sustainable economic growth, start with the strategic sectors. Mining is certainly number one. Mining built Zambia. Without mining there'd be no Copper Belt, there'd be no Zambia, because ultimately, all the proceeds from mining built a lot of our roads, our universities and so on. So it does remain our mainstay, though there is certainly an effort not only to grow the sector but to use the proceeds of the growth of that sector to diversify, because minerals don't last forever. These are finite, but we do have life of mines that are being extended to 80 to 100 years. So mining is going to be here to stay for generations, for sure. But we also want a situation where, 200 years from now because even though this country is still being mapped that the Zambians of when we are now ancestors will now have a situation where, when the copper dries up, they have more tourism, they have more agriculture, more manufacturing, more trading, they've got an economic platform that is not overly dependent on mining, and that is also part of the goal, if you think about mining in the long term, which, again, because we've stimulated that environment to take it beyond 100 years, we've done mapping. Mapping is an exercise where you explore for where minerals are. We've discovered ore bodies that will last us even 200 years, and that is part of the long term story. It means that as long as the world needs these commodities which it has needed these commodities for centuries, bridges are built based on them, buildings, energy In fact, we're going through an energy transition from fossil fuels to renewables, electric vehicles and the like. All of that needs battery metals needs, copper needs, cobalt, needs, manganese, needs, lithium and multiple metals, which, fortunately, zambia has in a significant degree of abundance. So creating a platform where we extract more but also process more is part of our long-term strategy and also having the accompanying energy to support those industries, and that's also something else that's coming into play.

Speaker 1:

I'll give you a bit of a short history about Zambia's energy sector. That's coming into play. I'll give you a bit of a short history about Zambia's energy sector. We currently produce about 3,500 megawatts of electricity, which is significantly low. In fact, our demand hovers between three to in that range. So at our peak, at our peak generation, where you have enough water because 85% of our per generation comes from hydro we can generate electricity not only for our own needs as Zambia, but we can also export. But because we haven't had a significant amount of rainfall in the last two years, that has been taken away. So now we have to import, we have to leverage on other forms of power generation.

Speaker 1:

Now what we've done is that we've started investing significantly in we're talking hundreds of megawatts, in fact getting over 1,000 megawatts of solar. Now, beyond that solar is, we're also doubling down. This is not great news for the environmental folks out there. But on thermal power even though it's clean coal and it's thermal coming from coal there's a plant that's being expanded from 300 to 600 megawatts and then another one coming. It's another 300. So you've got a situation where our capacity to generate electricity will move from 3,500 to over 5,000 in a relatively short space of time. That will mitigate our power deficit but will also make us ready for a future where we're not only industrializing more, but where the economic growth will move with our power generation capacity, will move with our population growth, our economic growth, so that we never have to suffer low shedding again. So we want our growth, investment in those sectors, to surpass even our population growth.

Speaker 1:

And, of course, without going into too much detail about other sectors, I'll close on agriculture, because it is a significant aspect of the African economy, including the Zambian economy, is that we're investing in farm blocks, we're creating all the road linkages that allow for access to markets, but also producing locally made fertilizers. So Zambia is going to be fertilizer secure from a local production perspective and we're already starting to export to other countries. So that is very important, a significant component of agriculture. We've got a huge amount of arable land, we're investing in irrigation, so the combination of seed, of irrigation of land, of fertilizer, makes for a better agricultural platform. So food and the industrial element and energy are fundamental to our long-term sustainability. But we also have to remember that for every area of land we declare, whether it be for energy or for mining, there's more land being sort of redeveloped for nature, so regrowing forests and things like nature. So the sustainability aspect from an environmental perspective is also being addressed. So that's just a snippet into our thinking long-term.

Speaker 1:

And allow me to close by saying this We've seen cities across Africa where it is so densely populated that traffic is a mess, and we are fortunate because our population is 20 million total and, with the landmass we have, we know that, in order for the Zambia of 2030, you talked about 2030, which is a very important marker for where Africa will be we'll have the youngest, the largest and youngest population in the world.

Speaker 1:

Now they need not only jobs, they need to be in an environment that is not chaotic, where they don't struggle, living in urban tenements and things of that nature.

Speaker 1:

We need to not only need to. We are investing not only in the rural area, but ensuring that we optimize the efficiencies, using technology and infrastructure in our cities so the young people have a better way of life within the city, but also we create an ecosystem, an economic environment, where they are not the ticking time bomb that some people talk about. The young people are essentially going to create instability because there are so many we're saying no. Young people are actually going to be a demographic dividend. They will add to building the Zambia of tomorrow. They'll be part and parcel of the growth. So we equip them with knowledge. We've re-established a voluntary Zambia National Service platform where they can essentially be involved in matters of national development, leveraging on one of our defense wings for that. And of course, there's multiple elements that we're looking to create to involve more young people in national development, but then also so they can have a sustainable life and income. I know that's a lot to it's a lot, but it's good.

Speaker 2:

But I think you, you know a lot of things that I think are very relevant. You know, young people are really, they have a potential to be a ticking time bomb. Let's be honest, I do think that we need to be able to invest enough. In a previous episode I had the statistician general of South Africa, who used to run StatsSA, and he was talking about how actually education is at the core of poverty for young people. A lot of people think, firstly, we need to get them employed. Unemployment is definitely a factor it accounts for about 15%, at least in South Africa but actually education is at the heart of it.

Speaker 2:

And I don't know, juto, if we're investing enough on the continent in terms of education outcomes for young people, scaling young people in such a way that they can compete against any young person across the world. And I think we need to think about our competition as global. I like what you're saying in terms of, for example, you've earmarked the agricultural sector in terms of producing locally, you know, local fertilizer and then exporting that, because that then starts to become some sort of competitive edge, right that Zambia starts to build you know other than just mining. But I'm just wondering if we're investing enough in the education of young people such that they can compete. I mean, you've seen how, in a matter of I think it's less than a year DeepSeek has now rivaled OpenAI's ChatGPT. Where does this leave Africa's young population in terms of competing globally, in terms of the skill sets they need to have, and are we investing enough in that?

Speaker 1:

That's again fantastic question and a very important point that you've raised and I'm 100% in agreement with you on. In 2021, he actually made education free from grade one all the way up to grade 12. So 12, which is equivalent to your matric, if I'm not mistaken. So essentially in all public schools, school is free. That hasn't happened since perhaps the 70s or something. Because of the constituency development fund that's been allocated across the country, they can now go to school in a decent classroom with a proper desk and with the recruitment of teachers. So I'll say this Number one, you make education free right, which I think is phenomenal. Number two, you drive more money to constituencies than ever before with the components to deal with education needs, to deal with issues of desks, classrooms and matters of that nature. So you're enhancing not only education you're creating a platform for education, but also education is done the physical infrastructure what do you do? You also build the software infrastructure. We've had the largest recruitment of teachers in the history of our country. In the shortest timeframe, 30,000 teachers were recruited in year. Infrastructure We've had the largest recruitment of teachers in the history of our country and in the shortest time frame 30,000 teachers were recruited in year.

Speaker 1:

One of the president coming to office. This is to address the free education and the new infrastructure being created in order to ensure that the ratio of teacher to pupils is enhanced, is improved, but also the quality of education is also improved, so that child who did not have a chance to go to school not only can go to school but has more teachers available at his or her disposal and the infrastructure associated with the education is also available. That is probably, if I'm not mistaken, the biggest investment on the African continent when it comes to education. I stand to be corrected on that. I'm sure I could be challenged. I'm a finance person. I come from the capital world, so when I speak of capital, everyone thinks I'm speaking about money. But the most important form of capital is the human being and we have to invest in that. And in addition to human capital development, there's the health element.

Speaker 2:

Health is one of the issues I'm also concerned about on the continent.

Speaker 1:

It is part of the human capital package, because human capital, you need maternal health. A mother needs to be able to deliver a child. I spent my Christmas at a newborn's hospital talking to doctors, appreciating the limitations and things we need to do. So my attachment to that has become even stronger at a personal level, not just as a government official. Now, the issue, the point around investing in that, is that you have a healthy population. We've also got a school feeding program, because we know that when that child who comes from an impoverished community goes to school, they need to be motivated. You know there's aspects associated with their cognitive capacity. They need to be engaged, they need to concentrate and that comes with them essentially having a decent meal. So that's also being put in place. So, of course, the cost of education is out. The infrastructure is there. Beyond that, the president now created the Ministry of Technology. Now that addresses issues of how do you now bring in alternative means of enhancing human capital? It's how do you teach people to appreciate aspects of STEM, putting more investments in STEM. Also ensuring that more technical colleges are being built. We're actually establishing more technical colleges than in a really long time across the country when the president has been launching them, and these are technical and vocational colleges where you don't necessarily have to get a degree, because not everyone needs to be an accountant or a lawyer or a doctor. We also need great technicians. We need people who are practical. Yes, our curriculum teaches us about the five sections of an insect or about niagara falls and about things that are not relevant to the life of a of a young african. We need to actually teach more entrepreneurship. We've actually created a new curriculum at high school level, at not only primary school but high school on basically financial literacy. I've got the books. We helped establish that, working with certain institutions, so we're covering all the bases in ensuring that the young African mind is prepared for a world that they could be competitive in. And part of human capital development is that you need to enhance access to capital as well, and we've enhanced a lot of allocation of funds to the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission, which deals with access to capital for people who typically wouldn't have ease of access to capital from banks and other places, and we're also partnering with banks and other financial institutions to make it easier for your Zambian who's in the marketplace, who is not somebody who is well-educated or has a certain background.

Speaker 1:

So the point is, from a competitive perspective, we have to be ready, and I dare say this with respect to other cultures, ethnicities. Right, an Indian child is far more equipped to be in business than an African child. Nothing wrong with that in particular, or with them, but the fact is we can learn from them. We can learn how is it possible that one has such prowess in the commercial space versus another culture? It comes down to some of the cultural elements. It comes down to upbringing. How are we orienting the people, or young Africans around business? Are we doing everything we can to prepare them to participate, to be involved? These are all these aspects that I think about on a regular basis and I'll tell you something that I do.

Speaker 1:

It's not in any way me trying to blow Mount Trumpet, but outside of the mandate of my job being an advisor to the president, I spend time every single week and weekend with the community. I sit with people within the most impoverished areas of our cities to learn and to intervene in ways in which I could guide on how they could run businesses, because it is such one of the greatest privileges of the world. When people talk about privilege, they think about oh, family, background, what school someone went to, did somebody have money or not? But for me, one of the greatest privileges is knowledge and if the difference between somebody who knows the activities, the secrets to success in business is going to be privileged and this is a way in which I convey privilege what I was exposed with, having studied abroad, having engaged, being a highly curious, you know child, I was able to accumulate a certain amount of information which I was able to successfully implement in my life and now I want that to be shared with people across all walks of life. And these are areas where I spend a lot of time, to the surprise of many. But I do it as a passion, because it's not a duty, a government duty, right, and some people get surprised.

Speaker 1:

It is more of doing that as a citizen who recognizes that we have a gap, a knowledge gap, and that's a knowledge gap that needs to be filled and guiding people on how do you even do a basic financial statement. You don't have to be an accountant to know that, if you're already in the market selling tomatoes, sort of guide a marketeer in. This is how you track your profitability. And once you've tracked your profitability. This is how you can save, you can reinvest, this is how you're going to raise capital and this is how you try to formalize your business so that you have access to some of the formal or the privileges of being a formal business, like loans and things of that nature. So all of this, to me, comes out of the very important question you asked and the points you raised around the importance of investment in education Are we doing more? Are we doing enough? The answer will always be no, because of how far back we are as a continent. Our collective GDP is even less than that of Germany. I mean, the point is, we have so much. We have a lot of work to do as a people, even and I dare say this even as black people globally.

Speaker 1:

And I want to make a point that it will sound controversial, but sometimes you need a bit of truth to stir up certain action, to activate people, to get people to be angry enough to say you know what? Enough is enough For me. What motivated me a lot? I went to school. I went to university in Canada. I hated the fact that when you're there as a minority, not only are you subject to things like racism and so on. It's normal. In any time an African or Black person exists anywhere in the world where they're a minority, they'll be subjected to racism. It is what it is.

Speaker 1:

But the second factor which is a problem is the fact that where black people are in the world will always be the poorest people in that particular country. This is a very painful reality. You count every country where black people exist, from Haiti to Brazil to the US, to even the wealthiest black people in the world are in the US, but in the economic totem pole they're at the bottom the UK, europe, you name it. That's how it is. And in some instances, if you just look at African economies, look at every African country and look at who owns to a large extent, by the way, with the exception of Nigerians ask yourself who controls from a shareholding perspective. It's not enough to have a black face as CEO. Who controls the banks? Who controls the mines? Who controls the telecoms? Who controls the manufacturing? You name it Everything that is ultimately the largest chunk of the economy. Ask yourself who the owners of that are, and this is nothing against them, right? This is not an us versus them. This is about us as black people, right? Reflecting on should we be angry with those who are dominant for being dominant, or should we be angry with ourselves for not being collectively organized to compete with those who are dominant so we can also have our fair share of not only our economies our own economies but even in places where we are not owners of the country, so to speak.

Speaker 1:

The point is, history has been very unkind to us, for sure. I mean, these are things I've talked about in my TEDx, whether it be, you know, colonial subjugation, slavery. That has been bad, but you know there's an expiry date for solutions. Like I even told my friends, friends in their 40s who still complain about how their parents raised them and why they're unsuccessful, I said, my friend, I think the time to complain about how you were raised has expired. You're a grown man now Take responsibility. So same thing with us as a people.

Speaker 1:

We really have to get to a point where the manner in which we control our resources, our societies, the decisions we make at policy level, have to be deliberate, have to be oriented around strengthening the capacity of Indigenous people or, in this particular instance, I'll point it out Black, black people, so that we are competitive and we're in an environment where we're not. Again, this is not a racial perspective, this is an economic perspective because, purely, if you just decide to divide people by the economic power, you will see that the shade of the color of the skin will stand out as part of that economic divide. So there is a linkage and to me, this is a call to action for us to not only in the financial sector, in government, in the entrepreneurial space, in our communities, in our households. Are we raising our children? Are we raising our child to be competitive so they can outdo the child of a person of another culture who dominates the economy? Right?

Speaker 1:

So for me, I put away the blame game on why this and this didn't happen. It's what can we do now? This is now our chance and for me, growing up, I knew the time would come where I'll come into an age or come into a certain situation where I can now play a part in this, because these are questions I used to ask myself as a child. Why is it that my good friend from the Patel family, for example, we love them. How come they own all of that and none of the people look like me on that? Why Is there something wrong with me.

Speaker 1:

These are the questions I've been asking and I still ask, but now there's a bit more clarity coming, and that clarity means let's collaborate better.

Speaker 1:

Let's as amongst ourselves, but also with others, let's also be much, you know, put our feet down and have a lot more conviction. And I tied back to something that was said earlier in your first question on our self-esteem, our sense of self-worth. Let's have a stronger sense of self-belief of being African, and this is what I'm willing to do in this transaction for the benefit of my people. You have your fair share. You can put in because you're bringing capital. You're bringing X, y, z, but I will fight for my share. And this is the mindset we go to when we're negotiating mining transactions. It's a mindset we're going into when we're looking at copper trading. We're now doing things based on that. That's the core of what makes that most, some of our policies. All comes down and this is really what encapsulates the important point around education, human capital development and enhancing the quality of life for Africans, and this is something that is at the core of even me as an individual.

Speaker 2:

So I dare say you and my previous guest sat down and compared notes because he said the exact same thing. I'm starting, I promise you, I'm starting to actually believe it as well, because you don't you know, it doesn't even need, you don't need to believe it, you just need to face reality, right? You just need to kind of look at the facts and say listen, where are we? How come our counterparts are doing a lot better than we are? Right, and I want to touch on what you said earlier about going to spend time with communities. You know, because that's so fundamental to what we need to do, we need to understand our communities a little bit better. There's a course I did with MIT. It talks about data-driven policymaking. It's run by Esther Dufflo, so the point, though, about that work is that she spends a lot of time trying to understand factors that cause poverty and led by data and experiments. So it feels like what you're doing is almost going into communities saying and running a mini experiment. Right, and I feel like, honestly, we need to do a lot more of that in policymaking.

Speaker 2:

A lot of policy is sort of blind to that science or behavioral aspect of how people live their lives, in terms of what makes them human to begin with. You know what determines the economic outcomes, their health outcomes and all the things that we spoke about. You spoke about raising children. How are we raising our children? You know, is it? Are we doing it differently compared to the rest of the world? When you get and actually I'm thinking about it this morning, when I was speaking to my daughter and she gave me the biggest attitude you could ever think of but actually it goes back to the point of confidence, because you know we're raised to say, hey, I'm the mom, like you're the child, like that's it. This is how we operate in this household. So, yeah, there's a lot I think we can unpack there and I really think that it's really commendable that you've already started venturing down that path to observe us as human beings, to say, but what is it that, fundamentally, we can give you the fund? Yes, but what are you going to do with it? How do we start to change that behavior such that you use your, your capital, to invest in the right businesses? So I think that's where that's what we need to to go.

Speaker 2:

As you know, the work is deeper. I know a lot of the time we are focused on the now because, like you said, when you're elected into government listen, we've got load shedding you need to deal with it Like that is the reality. But I think the long-term aspect and the thinking and the careful analysis, but also understanding that we are different, africa is different, we are diverse. You said it earlier on. We're not just one monolithic type of people. We don't just have one sort of food, we don't have just one sort of language. So I think it's amazing.

Speaker 2:

But let's go back a little bit to something you talked about, which is diversifying the economy. Now, I find this as one of Africa's, it's like our thing. You know, how do we diversify our economies? I think, from a South African perspective, maybe the problem is slightly different. It's more the concentration of the economy, to the point you made earlier. But I think, in terms of diversifying our economies, one of the things I started reading about recently is Mauritius. Mauritius has been able to diversify its economy from just sugar cane to tourism, to a financial services destination, and it's grown its GDP per capita from like $260 to like $9,000, right. So there's a bit of a story there, and I think it's a story that you're alluding to as well in terms of how we'd leveraged taxes collected and invested that into human capital and social programs.

Speaker 2:

My question there, though, would be are governments intentional in terms of these? Are the three big bets? You know, in strategy we talk about big bets and corporate strategy. These are the three big bets that I'm going to invest in to get from point A to point B. I think earlier you spoke about agriculture, but I'd like to get a sense of if we are betting on leading the next wave of Gen AI, for example, as a country. As a country, are we then aligning our investments accordingly in the short term to get to that point, to the point you made, in order to get to this diversified economy, because it feels like this has eluded us for a little bit. This has been like something that has not necessarily translated for a while. Regardless of how many times politicians and business people tell us they're working with politicians to help diversify the economy, for some reason this hasn't always translated. So do you think?

Speaker 2:

we're intentional enough.

Speaker 1:

I can speak for Zambia because I sit right in the administration, so I know what we're doing. I know what we're working on. So one is where the key is to put your money where your mouth is. So, on one hand, mining is to put your money where your mouth is right. So, on one hand, mining is definitely being supercharged, but because part of economic diversification, there's a couple of things you must do is also learn. The wheel should not have to be reinvented right.

Speaker 1:

We look at countries that have gone from relative obscurity to being prosperous, like the UAE, like Qatar. What do they have in common with us? They've got a natural resource that they used a single industry that generated so much revenue that they use that to diversify their economies. So the models are there and we learn from them. We've got a close relationship with countries like them. Now, part of that is why are we pushing so much into mining? Because to diversify you need to invest. Capital doesn't fall from the sky. You need a combination of FDI or you need to be able to accumulate enough capital in your treasury to allocate those funds to then stimulate other industries.

Speaker 1:

Economic diversification requires stimulus. It requires building infrastructure that makes it easy, creating a platform for that industry to thrive. Take tourism, for example. We've essentially grown the tourism industry from the time we came into office. We have more landings, tourist landings. We have more occupancy rates in our hotels of reason, for a number of reasons. One is that we've completely relaxed our visa regime for multiple countries around the world. You don't need a visa to come to Zambia. You show up, boom, you're in. It's super efficient from the time you get off the plane to the time you get to the hotel. Of course, we make the country very safe. Fortunately, that's been the case for quite a bit. That makes tourists very comfortable. The investment in new hospitality infrastructure. I'm on calls with global tourism brands. I don't want to mention names, but these are brands that you and I see on TV. Then the Bahamas, then Cape Town they're all over the place and these are people who are coming to Zambia setting up.

Speaker 1:

Now the point is that's an example of economic diversification. It's creating policies that you make one or two tweaks, but guess who does the rest of the work? The private sector. And this is something I need to address as a point for reflection of us as Africans. The question is are we too reliant on government to be the means to take us either out of poverty or to change our circumstances. Because one thing I've observed in multiple African countries is that there are certain communities who always thrive, regardless of the nature of the government, the party or who's in power. They always thrive because they've got something of great relevance that they have in the economy that the consumers out there are consuming. Sometimes people don't care who's behind the product. So why am I saying all of this? I'm going back to the point of policy and how it helps diversify the economy. Yes, you have to be deliberate, but the people who implement that, the private sector.

Speaker 1:

Let me put it back to my case. If President Hichelama says agriculture, we need to diversify the economy and have more investment in agriculture, but what's happening? There's chiefs sitting on tracts of land, tens of thousands of hectares and people sometimes. So the call has been made. Now it's up to an individual to make a call to say you know what I'm going to go now invest. Because it's not the government who invests, because the government collects taxes and from its taxation it keeps the country safe, national security, it does public services, you know. But people should not look at government really as the sole provider of solutions To me. That's also one of the fundamental problems we have as Africans is the expectation that my problems will be solved by government.

Speaker 1:

Because when an Indian comes into Zambia, when a Chinese comes into Zambia, he's not looking at the government as that, because he's looking at it as more of a facilitator of what he or she is going to do anyway, with or without the government right. So, for example, he comes and says I'm going to build the biggest mattress factory in Zambia. The government didn't tell him to do that. The private sector person saw the market for mattresses. They raised the money from the banks. Government is not involved in that. They go and do their marketing, their market survey, they establish it and they ask the minister hey, can you come and cut the ribbon? They might ask for an incentive. Hey, listen, they establish it and they ask the minister hey, can you come and cut the ribbon? They might ask for an incentive. Hey, listen, they might try to convince you to put a tariff on the importation of mattresses from South Africa so that the product is competitive. They might do that, but at the end of the day, the interface in government is actually quite limited. But it's us who want government. Please come help us. It is the truth, because in Zambia we've got Chinese. Yes, they come to government, but you'd be amazed in the things that they come to government to ask for. I've got a building, a recycling plant, I need an environmental clearance. So I'm not telling him what to do. He's coming to get authorization to do what he's already going to do or she's already going to do. So we diversify the economy strategically. We should do it and get.

Speaker 1:

Yes, lobito Corridor is an important element. It's a government initiative working with other governments. Yes, because it involves multiple jurisdictions Congo. It also involves Angola. We need access to that port. We need to leverage on our diplomatic ties. But it's. What is the private sector in Zambia going to do with that platform once it's created? Will they sell their chickens and their eggs? Because we know that guess what? Angola imports a lot of chickens from Brazil. There's all stuff they get from Portugal, right next door. We've never had a proper economic linkage. Now we're going to have one. What are we going to do? So? Chambers of commerce need to come together. Business groupings need to come together. Whatsapp groups need to discuss more. How do we build each other's businesses than gossiping.

Speaker 1:

I mean let's literally have a conversation, let's spend a day where we cut out the gossip, cut out the noise and say well, you and I, matebe, we're saying you know what? How can we establish a business where we really think it through? Because let me tell you other colleagues and I say this, I've mentioned this, it's been the elephant in the room for many people. They hold it in, but others are doing that. The Lebanese businessman in Zambia who's selling secondhand clothes is meeting this community every day and they're pulling money together. We are great at raising money for, oh, there's a baby shower, there's a funeral, there's this. But can I come and sit with you and rest of my friends and say how do we go and compete that indian guy's making noodles? How can I he's raised how much from his community have? When is last time I put money in my friend's business? First of all, I've not been asked.

Speaker 1:

Or when are we collectively and this is the culture we're trying to build is, can we now create an ecosystem where there's what we call citizen autonomy, citizen power and the power of you know? And again, it's only us Africans who believe that capitalism is evil. Well, everybody else thrives off it because we believe that every little thing that is produced has to be shared. But no, the world doesn't work like that. We are 15% of the global population, but we control 1% of global wealth collectively, including the richest black people in the world, which are the African-Americans. There's a problem we have to have a family meeting as black people.

Speaker 2:

We do. We do need dialogue. We do, we need dialogue honestly, because you're right, those are the statistics. That's the reality. Even if you look at our billionaires compared to, like the rest of the world's billionaires, there's a big difference. You know there's a big difference. Okay, I'm going to wrap up, because you have to go work, and so do I.

Speaker 1:

I know you're wrapping up, but allow me to say this because I think it's important Access to finance is connected to savings. The financial system, the ecosystem of finance. Money has to be pulled somewhere, and for you to access that money, somebody should have saved it. So there's two fundamental things we need to do as Africans. One is we need to save more. Yes, there's multiple things can be talked about, no, but we don't make enough. But trust me, when money is needed for funerals, we find it. When money is needed for all sorts of other things, we find it, even for privileged things.

Speaker 1:

I know people who may not make a lot of money, but they somehow have a Gucci bag. There's all sorts of decisions we make that are not very wise, so we need to be much more frugal, and the same cultures we make fun of they say ah, those people they don't spend. When an Indian is rich, you find he doesn't buy a BMW, he buys a Toyota Corolla, but guess what? Him and his community have put more funds together to essentially build a power plant. Well, we can do that. So the point is number one we need to accumulate resources together. Number one we need to accumulate resources together so that, when those resources are accumulated, we now make it accessible to people in our community. That's how the financial system works, is the relationship between saving and investing, and investing leads to access to finance. I just wanted to make that point.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's an important point, because also linked to that point is the number of people starting businesses and growing them, because part of it is when you look at, you know, our US counterparts the billionaires reinvest into the economy right through venture funds, and rich families reinvest in the economy through endowment funds, and so, honestly, I also find that we're not doing that as much. Honestly, I also find that we're not doing that as much. In fact, our businesses are not necessarily growing to that level, to the point where we can start a venture capital fund, you know, or a yeah, an accelerator, and fund that and fund the next generation of entrepreneurs. So I think that's another relationship. So, savings there's a piece around savings and access to finance, but then you know, you need to kind of invest that money back into businesses that actually grow.

Speaker 2:

I think the key thing, though, for government is always building the right skills, the right living conditions, because when people have those, at least they can start to dream and think outside of the box. I do want to close off and say you are in an advisory position, and it's an important one. When you look back, you know, a couple of years from now what is the one thing you want to kind of remember, as a legacy for Zambia, what's the one or two? There may not be one in your case, maybe two or three, but I mean, what are the key things that you want to kind of look back and say as a legacy we did that, and because we've done this, we think that Zambia is going to be better off.

Speaker 1:

Beautiful. I love that question. Thank you for giving me that opportunity. I want to restructure that question. It's the same. I'll answer the same question, but restructured in saying how do I want to be remembered for what we do?

Speaker 1:

Because I feel that the credibility of wholeheartedly on its mandate by, first and foremost, anchoring everything on love for the country and that love for the country was illustrated through our work, our personal sacrifices, the things we did that are not comfortable, from short hours of sleep to trips that were completely so strenuous on the body that you have meetings In a day. You have 15 meetings because you want to trigger an investment that takes care of a child living in a village, in a remote village in Kawambwa, or a youth on the Copper Belt to be able to get a job, to be able to work in a mine, to have a better community. So number one is that we did it with our hearts, that we delivered sustainable energy. When Zambians have their lights on 24 hours, industries are powered. It's because of the thousands of megawatts that we invested in Number one. Number two we got copper production to three million tons that every Zambian citizen could benefit from that because the treasury is making more money and the government is able to provide more money for social welfare, and that we created an economic environment where more business leaders were created, more young Zambian millionaires were created because we created access to capital. We created the right mindset that transformed people's lives. Fourth, we created jobs. That more jobs were created than at any other point in history, not only through the private sector entrepreneurship endeavors, but also through large industries, through manufacturing.

Speaker 1:

That we had products produced in Zambia more than ever before. That we had value addition in the mining industry. That not only did we secure from a food security perspective, that we created energy, food security, energy security. We had enough fertilizer produced. That we produced everything from building materials to things that the continent needs to consume. We made it right here that the tourist numbers were beyond numbers or at least were competitive with great cities like Cape Town.

Speaker 1:

Right, and really that people's lives. Ultimately, that incomes went up. That it's not about the cost per se of living. It's that the level of income was enough to meet the cost of living, because a cost is connected to what goes into producing your everyday goods and services, but people made enough money to get by. That we brought down poverty to a number that is below the continental average, and that the quality of life for a Zambian is good. We maintained our peace, our rule of law, our order and that really that. That's ultimately what we have to be remembered for, and that's what we're working towards, and that's what we're going to deliver.

Speaker 2:

Tito, it's always a pleasure talking to you. I think it's always incredible just to hear your insights and, yeah, I'm certain you're going to look back and see that reality. So all the best to you as you continue along your journey. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much. Yeah, all right, and to our listeners, thank you for tuning in and don't forget to subscribe, share and leave a review. All the best, thank you.